master water/meth discussion thread

On the subject of WMI

Tech tip of the week: If you have a COBB AP or another method of fast datalogging you can determine if your WMI system is working as it should using a few indicators.

I have attached a graph showing 2 overlaid datalogs from one of our customer running an F23T and WMI: One has WMI working and one has WMI not working. Look at the 2 circled sets of numbers.

First the injection time is lower and fuel pressure is higher when WMI is spraying because the methanol is contributing to the fueling. By the same token fuel trims move LOWER (pulling fuel) when WMI is spraying.

More obviously timing is steadily moving upwards with no knock when WMI is spraying. Compare how much knock and how much lower timing the ECU runs when WMI is not spraying.

A final indicator is a drop in charge air temps if you are injection before the IAT sensor. However in really cold weather or if injecting past the sensor this may not be as clear.

Alex@Stratified said:

Gasoline has a lot more detergents than WMI. We've gone through this experience with our aux fuel kits for the Ecoboost.

Have a look at the pictures on this page:

http://www.stratifiedauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=116_94&products_id=255

After installing 4 port aux fuel versus throttle body the valves are factory fresh clean. The aux fuel only runs under boost but I spend a good amount of time there .

Click to expand...

when will you guy make the aux fuel inject for mk6?

siupo128 said:

when will you guy make the aux fuel inject for mk6?

Click to expand...

We are working on it ... soon .

Aux fueling would be the silver bullet! God speed.

Alex@Stratified said:

We are working on it ... soon .

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thanks. also it said it require tuning for it, do i need to have the cobb ap? because i have eurodyne, will it be working too?

Has anyone had any issues with rust / iron buildup in their system? I swapped over to braided stainless / ptfe AN lines in June, and while I was swapping my intake manifold, I had to disconnect my meth lines up in the engine bay. I noticed inside the ends of the lines what looks like rust. I see brown / orange on the screens on the nozzles as well. I had too much going on to look at much more, but I'm not sure if it's iron in the distilled water that I used, some kind of sediment / corrosion from a few brass fittings I have just after the pump, or if it's somehow the crimp fittings on the AN lines that I bought that are rusted

I've never run tap water in the system.. it's always been washer fluid and heet, or vp m1 methanol straight from a sealed drum. The last batch I made was with distilled water and vp m1 methanol

so i went out on a limb and ended up winning a snow performance stage 2 meth kit. i never really planned on using meth but i can't say no to this chance.

i currently have a gtx30 turbo and my car is built for road racing. i have 2 questions:

1. I get to pick a stage 2 kit. Which kit should I get? One is sensor based and and one i'm assuming just goes off a regular boost tap.
http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/Snow_Performance_Stage_2_Boost_Cooler-4854-508.html
http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/Snow_Performance_Stage_2_MAF_MAP_Boost_Cooler-4856-508.html

2. How can i get the most out of this setup? I've already had one throttle body fail on me in the past so would like to avoid that. I'm assuming that means a single nozzle in a throttle body spacer. Can i set it up in a way that I can make it through a track day without having to fill it up multiple times? That's my main concern and the primary reason meth wasn't on my radar. For reference I usually go through a tank of gas a day in a typical event.

Boost tap, do an I abed (issam) spacer. Run around 200-300cc at 75%. You won't get a ton of fueling but a little more knock protection and cooling

deal thanks man

kern417 said:

so i went out on a limb and ended up winning a snow performance stage 2 meth kit. i never really planned on using meth but i can't say no to this chance.

i currently have a gtx30 turbo and my car is built for road racing. i have 2 questions:

1. I get to pick a stage 2 kit. Which kit should I get? One is sensor based and and one i'm assuming just goes off a regular boost tap.
http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/Snow_Performance_Stage_2_Boost_Cooler-4854-508.html
http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/Snow_Performance_Stage_2_MAF_MAP_Boost_Cooler-4856-508.html

2. How can i get the most out of this setup? I've already had one throttle body fail on me in the past so would like to avoid that. I'm assuming that means a single nozzle in a throttle body spacer. Can i set it up in a way that I can make it through a track day without having to fill it up multiple times? That's my main concern and the primary reason meth wasn't on my radar. For reference I usually go through a tank of gas a day in a typical event.

Click to expand...

Before you get started, determine your goal. Is this just going to be supplemental cooling for your current tune or will this be cooling/fueling for a more aggressive tune.

If you already have a tune that is dialed in and pulls little or no timing under full load, adding w/m will provide marginal value. That same tune of course on a 100F track day will probably be pulling timing unless you are running higher octane fuel than the tune originally called for. In the case of hot days the w/m can allow you to run your usual 91/93 octane gas and minimize lost power on hot days by providing all the cooling and high octane fueling.

If you are going to get a race file and want to be able to run it without running race gas all the time, w/m is very effective. You can increase power levels significantly. I run a race file daily with water meth and can just fill up with 91oct.

In the case where you go for the power, you will of course spray a lot more. You can get larger, properly vented tanks that can rear mount. For track days you don't want a reservoir that will last you all day (why carry the weight). You just need it to get you through a session, maybe 2.

With the power levels you can achieve with the GTX30 series turbos you should probably consider an upgrade the w/m system if you were going to use it to go for increased power. TB spray for fueling works but not as well as direct port.

Direct Port - nozzle for each cylinder for fueling/cooling, either modify your current intake manifold or if you are already using and IE or HPAv2 intake manifold they are setup for it. If you are just going to keep your current tune then a TB plate will work, thats what I run (K04) but I will go to direct port when I finish my rebuild to EFR7163.

And one or two nozzles just after intercooler for cooling.

Larger reservoirs that can be rear mounted are available from Snow and Devilsown. The basic kits don't have all the nozzles and checkvalves you will need.

Speaking of reservoirs, any recommendations? The one that came with my Stage 2 Kit is small. I feel like I refill it often. I know this is because of my settings, but I just want more fluid in a reservoir without breaking the bank.

Gino said:

Speaking of reservoirs, any recommendations? The one that came with my Stage 2 Kit is small. I feel like I refill it often. I know this is because of my settings, but I just want more fluid in a reservoir without breaking the bank.

Click to expand...

I currently use my windshield washer reservoir but am going to order this 3 gal unit which will go in back. Pump should be close to reservoir and this tank has a nice little pocket for it. This 3 gal unit should be just right without taking up too much space or weighing too much. You can get one any size you want of course.

This is the unit I am going to order.

GIACUser said:

Before you get started, determine your goal. Is this just going to be supplemental cooling for your current tune or will this be cooling/fueling for a more aggressive tune.

If you already have a tune that is dialed in and pulls little or no timing under full load, adding w/m will provide marginal value. That same tune of course on a 100F track day will probably be pulling timing unless you are running higher octane fuel than the tune originally called for. In the case of hot days the w/m can allow you to run your usual 91/93 octane gas and minimize lost power on hot days by providing all the cooling and high octane fueling.

If you are going to get a race file and want to be able to run it without running race gas all the time, w/m is very effective. You can increase power levels significantly. I run a race file daily with water meth and can just fill up with 91oct.

In the case where you go for the power, you will of course spray a lot more. You can get larger, properly vented tanks that can rear mount. For track days you don't want a reservoir that will last you all day (why carry the weight). You just need it to get you through a session, maybe 2.

With the power levels you can achieve with the GTX30 series turbos you should probably consider an upgrade the w/m system if you were going to use it to go for increased power. TB spray for fueling works but not as well as direct port.

Direct Port - nozzle for each cylinder for fueling/cooling, either modify your current intake manifold or if you are already using and IE or HPAv2 intake manifold they are setup for it. If you are just going to keep your current tune then a TB plate will work, thats what I run (K04) but I will go to direct port when I finish my rebuild to EFR7163.

And one or two nozzles just after intercooler for cooling.

Larger reservoirs that can be rear mounted are available from Snow and Devilsown. The basic kits don't have all the nozzles and checkvalves you will need.

Click to expand...

well that sucks. i really want my tune to be dialed in on 93 and mostly use this for cooling if anything. but for 1, i'm not sure how much i want to spray post ic just to make sure my throttle body stays alive. and secondly i don't want to tune more aggressively for water meth yet because that is my primary concern if i run out mid session. From another post it sounds like most people go through ~5 gallons a weekend and I would feel safe with a reservoir that lasts ~3 20-30min sessions. so probably a 2 gallon tank. i'll keep looking into it but thanks for the info.

kern417 said:

but for 1, i'm not sure how much i want to spray post ic just to make sure my throttle body stays alive.

Click to expand...

If you read through this thread there are MANY people running W/M injected post IC (at the IC outlet, or in the tubing pre-IAT) without damage to their throttle bodies. As long as your nozzle is not overly sized the W/M will be completely absorbed in the air before it reaches the TB. This will have no more effect than running your car on a humid day.

kern417 said:

well that sucks. i really want my tune to be dialed in on 93 and mostly use this for cooling if anything. but for 1, i'm not sure how much i want to spray post ic just to make sure my throttle body stays alive. and secondly i don't want to tune more aggressively for water meth yet because that is my primary concern if i run out mid session. From another post it sounds like most people go through ~5 gallons a weekend and I would feel safe with a reservoir that lasts ~3 20-30min sessions. so probably a 2 gallon tank. i'll keep looking into it but thanks for the info.

Click to expand...

Well if your tune is dialed in at 93 without w/m at 60F ambient temp it will certainly help you on hot days when the ECU starts pulling timing because of knock. Also at the track even on cool days it will help because of the extreme heat.

Spraying post IC is not really going to put your TB in danger. Just place as close to the IC as possible to (farther from TB) so the mix has time to evap. And of course the TB plate allows you to spray after the TB. If necessary use multiple nozzles rather than one large nozzle post IC.

I run a race file and I have run out at the track (actually contaminated mix plugged up both nozzles completely). It is not as treacherous as folks make it out to be. Our ECUs are quite effective in making adjustments including large ones to timing if something like this happens. My MKV ECU can pull 12 degrees of timing that is a lot by design, your MK6 ECU can pull just as much. I didn't realize the w/m was not working until I went to fill it for the next session only to find out I had not used any. Normally I use a gallon during a session.

A couple tips on install of that Snow system.
1. it uses nylon tubing push to connect fixtures. Push to connects can be leaky especially when they come into the push connect from a curve as opposed to coming straight in. To avoid curves in the tubing buy the 90 degree push to connect fittings to allow you to change direction with the tubing without bending or curving.
2. Add the supplied solenoid between the reservoir and the pump.
3. The kit comes with an LED you can mount in dash, use it, just make sure the location is easy to see while you are driving at full throttle. I put mine a little to low and it made it difficult to use.
4. Add a dash mounted ON/OFF switch for the system so you can just shut the system off. This would be especially helpful if you are going to use a tune that does not "require" w/m as you have described. Just turn it on when you are at track or on hot days. It will help you save mix by not spraying when you don't need it.