My Long Time Question to AWE Tuning

[greasyginzo]

AWE,

I have a few questions I have always wondered about your company.

Why not develop big turbo kits for the FSI and TSI motors and compete with APR? They have the "turn key" big turbo market monopolized and with your relationship with GIAC you have the software side covered. Do you not have the engineering staff to take on projects like this? Lets face it GIAC was the top and from what I remember only tuner back in the 90's(not sure when APR came into the scene). Then APR started gaining ground and a lot of market share. As it stood a few years ago it was GIAC and APR who where the top 2 companies for ECU tuning VAG cars with REVO up near there as well but not quite at the same market share levels as GIAC and APR. In the recent years REVO has really lost a decent market share (at least from what I see here in the US) and Unitronic has been gaining very steady ground. 6 years ago when people said the words "The Big 3" it was GIAC, APR and REVO now it is APR, GIAC and Uni.

I mean are you guys looking to increase business and awareness of your company or is this like a hobby for the owner/s? You dropped out of a couple of big east coast shows this year in favor of focusing on "Grass Roots Marketing" which I found a little strange but I am not in any position to say if that was a bad call or not.

I know the intakes and exhaust all that little stuff boot gauges etc is easy to make and are great money makers but seriously why no turn key big turbo kits? There is obviously a big market for them. APR is cranking stage 3 Golf R's like they are going out of style. I personally am a die hard GIAC fan. All my vw's have had GIAC software except for my current MK6 which is APR. The only reason it is APR is because I had the day off the day after I took delivery of my car and I was bored and able to drive 20 mins away and get the APR flash. To be perfectly honest I regret being impatient that day but I am going to switch back to GIAC once the stock turbo comes out.

So my question is why not expand your product lines and bring some turn key big turbo options to market?

Why not design your own intercoolers for FSI and TSI?

 

[GoodTimesIndeed]

I too would love to see other companies come out with more turbo kits. A little friendly competition never hurt no one LOL.

I'm trying to hold off as long as I can on an upgraded turbo because I know the moment that I plunk down the cash on something, that's when something better will come along.

 

[MKV727]

As far as the big turbo kit goes, it's not easy. The MED17 is very difficult to get big turbo software perfected. Only company I know to do it is APR, you'll see everybody else uses an EBC for boost control.

Having done it and knowing how difficult it is anybody else who can get it perfected gets a cold beer from me.

That's just software. Hardware to do it properly is expensive in up front tooling costs. I do agree, another solution would sell. The reason why this isn't going to happen though is because no single company offers both hardware and software.

 

[Rotaryknight]

As far as the big turbo kit goes, it's not easy. The MED17 is very difficult to get big turbo software perfected. Only company I know to do it is APR, you'll see everybody else uses an EBC for boost control.

Having done it and knowing how difficult it is anybody else who can get it perfected gets a cold beer from me.

That's just software. Hardware to do it properly is expensive in up front tooling costs. I do agree, another solution would sell. The reason why this isn't going to happen though is because no single company offers both hardware and software.

Yep APR is sorta like Apple. They control both their hardware and software. Everything else is a PC mix and match. AWE is like buying a Dell or HP.

Without having everything in house things get hard.

 

[greasyginzo]

Yep APR is sorta like Apple. They control both their hardware and software. Everything else is a PC mix and match. AWE is like buying a Dell or HP.

Without having everything in house things get hard.

All true but they have long history / relationship / partnership with GIAC

 

[chrisisnapping]

That's just software. Hardware to do it properly is expensive in up front tooling costs. I do agree, another solution would sell. The reason why this isn't going to happen though is because no single company offers both hardware and software.

but why does that matter?

many other platforms have tuners and they have builders.

Not many platforms have someone like an APR, and they get by. I mean APR has been invaluable to us, don't get me wrong.

 

[MKV727]

but why does that matter?

many other platforms have tuners and they have builders.

Not many platforms have someone like an APR, and they get by. I mean APR has been invaluable to us, don't get me wrong.

When building something that is turn key, you have to have knowledge of both aspects of development. No other way around it.

Something can look great from a hardware standpoint, but be a nightmare to tune because of X limitation. That's why a lot of BT kits do not come with software, they'll come with a partnership to Eurodyne, or some vendor who made a canned file 5 years ago and is pushing it as a BT solution @ $900.00. Majority of these builds are never finished, or if they are finished the software is absolutely terrible and they're running MAFless with an EBC. Eurodyne is not a viable solution by a long shot so you'd need a pro tuner at X software company to go in on this and that isn't available.

 

[greasyginzo]

When building something that is turn key, you have to have knowledge of both aspects of development. No other way around it.

Something can look great from a hardware standpoint, but be a nightmare to tune because of X limitation. That's why a lot of BT kits do not come with software, they'll come with a partnership to Eurodyne, or some vendor who made a canned file 5 years ago and is pushing it as a BT solution @ $900.00. Majority of these builds are never finished, or if they are finished the software is absolutely terrible and they're running MAFless with an EBC. Eurodyne is not a viable solution by a long shot so you'd need a pro tuner at X software company to go in on this and that isn't available.

so if all that is true then how/why is Driver Motorsport advertising BT software? You are saying that DM software is not a viable solution in a round about way by that statement

 

[Gunkata]

That's just software. Hardware to do it properly is expensive in up front tooling costs. I do agree, another solution would sell. The reason why this isn't going to happen though is because no single company offers both hardware and software.

APR and AMS comes to mind right off the bat - granted the latter is not a VAG tuner, but still.


In the end, we can ask questions all day to manufacturers and retailers, but ultimately they will do what makes sense to them as a business, and with regard to what R&D and productions costs would be, etc.

 

[MKV727]

so if all that is true then how/why is Driver Motorsport advertising BT software? You are saying that DM software is not a viable solution in a round about way by that statement

Nothing to do with DM, really.

Not selling turn key kits and not looking to partner with a hardware manufacturer, doing software is totally different. It's only 1/2 of the equation. Each file is made for that particular set up, it's not a blanket file that uses an EBC, moves boost control out of the way, cranks up fueling and sets timing.

 

[Bender1]

ultimately they will do what makes sense to them as a business, and with regard to what R&D and productions costs would be, etc.

This.

 

[MKV727]

APR and AMS comes to mind right off the bat - granted the latter is not a VAG tuner, but still.


In the end, we can ask questions all day to manufacturers and retailers, but ultimately they will do what makes sense to them as a business, and with regard to what R&D and productions costs would be, etc.

AMS came to mind as well. They build the best kits in the aftermarket. They really are a work of art.

 

[Balt21]

When building something that is turn key, you have to have knowledge of both aspects of development. No other way around it.

Something can look great from a hardware standpoint, but be a nightmare to tune because of X limitation. That's why a lot of BT kits do not come with software, they'll come with a partnership to Eurodyne, or some vendor who made a canned file 5 years ago and is pushing it as a BT solution @ $900.00. Majority of these builds are never finished, or if they are finished the software is absolutely terrible and they're running MAFless with an EBC. Eurodyne is not a viable solution by a long shot so you'd need a pro tuner at X software company to go in on this and that isn't available.

Not AWE specific, but this is a problem, IMO, with the VW tuning companies/options. A gripe I've had with modding VW cars is that you can't get custom tunes. I knew this before I bought the car, but it still bothers me sometimes. Unitronic will work with you from my understanding though. The VW ecu's are apparently 1,000 times harder to crack than every other manufacturer and only 4 companies have the ability to do it. :iono:

A lot of other platforms don't have "turn key" BT setups that come with software to flash the car with. You go to Buschur/AMS/CBRD/Turbo Tek/HP Tuners guy/Open source guy/etc. and say something like "I have a GT3071R turbo with XYZ supporting mods, can you tune my car?" Then, they put your car on a dyno and tune it. Of course there are risks involved with custom tunes, just like canned tunes, but it would be nice to have the option.

Canned tunes are fine; mainly for a bolt on car. I would feel uneasy knowing I'm putting a turbo on my car that is going to take it from 200 hp to 500 hp and I'm getting the same tune as a guy on the other side of the country with different supporting mods, different climate, and a different goal for the car.

/rant

 

[U-20T]

As far as the big turbo kit goes, it's not easy. The MED17 is very difficult to get big turbo software perfected. Only company I know to do it is APR, you'll see everybody else uses an EBC for boost control.

Having done it and knowing how difficult it is anybody else who can get it perfected gets a cold beer from me.

That's just software. Hardware to do it properly is expensive in up front tooling costs. I do agree, another solution would sell. The reason why this isn't going to happen though is because no single company offers both hardware and software.

Correction your OPINION n75 is the "correct" way of boost control. Fact is EBC works perfectly fine mine is run parallel to the n75 so the ECU still has its safety functions.

 

[MKV727]

Correction your OPINION n75 is the "correct" way of boost control. Fact is EBC works perfectly fine mine is run parallel to the n75 so the ECU still has its safety functions.

The ECU cannot detect limp mode and tell the EBC to open the wastegate. If the N75 does this, it doesn't matter because the EBC is overriding it. If you look at a data log of a BT car with an EBC and you log N75 you'll see it does all sorts of crazy stuff and near the end of the pull is almost always at 2%. You don't need to do anything if you're using an EBC, all that really needs to be done is ensure the fueling is at the proper target and to calibrate timing advance, this cuts 80% of the work out to the point that this is easier to do than calibrating a Stage 2 tune.

It'll work fine and you'll probably never run into an issue using an EBC, not denying that. These Bosch ECUs are very smart and if one were so inclined, they can basically let the ECU do all of the work. The correct way is to use the ECU, which is likely the most advanced EBC there is. Using the ECU, you have factors such as knock, ambient conditions, fueling and a sophisticated boost control system that is all being factored in on that dyno run, with an EBC all of this stuff is essentially turned off. Using the ECU, the car will run perfectly no matter the ambient conditions, altitude or fuel type because if calibrated all of this stuff is factored into the equation.